Dear Newsvine / MSNBC: Here's why I answered 0 to your question...

Because a lot of things are going to change.

Good! Any ETA?

It's good to hear some changes are coming. Hopefully they're for the better of the community.

Because a lot of things are going to change.

Any hints?

Hopefully they're for the better of the community.

I echo that, ombra, although it's a statement with many implications; some here want division, and others of us want 'all' voices to have equal 'opportunity' - not necessarily outcome - just opportunity, rather than the current system of 'squelching' voices that don't mirror our own.

This is in conjunction with Brian's point in that 'quality' is subjective to the reader. If only one side's "quality" is allowed to be heard, then the notion of having a quality site, is seriously damaged.

Exactly, Brian. As ambitious as the idea of democracy-ruled content may be, we've attracted too many people who (a) want to stay in their own echo chamber of political opinions, and/or (b) only venture out of that echo chamber to shout at the other side. When your entire content structure relies on majority rule, it collapses on itself when the majority is just looking patting itself on the back or looking for a fight.

Politics has always been the bread and butter of Newsvine. Even in its heyday political pieces would easily be 75% of the front page. But now it's 95-99% of the front page. And if these were insightful political pieces, that would be fine. Instead, too often, it's partisan pandering and trolling. Articles that are poorly reasoned or poorly written will be defended by those who agree with the perspective.

Projects like my regular Lost features, Ben's photography, or your community Survivor activity don't really have a place here anymore. This isn't the Newsvine I fell in love with, and you made a good case for why it isn't the one you fell in love with either.

It's funny that you should write this article, Brian, after I just used you as an example to try and offer an explanation as to why NVP had a blow-back issue recently. After thinking back to some other NV incidents, I remembered some had expressed concerns that their content would suddenly become not good enough to post on Newsvine. Specifically mentioned in our little incident was that adding extra tags, graphics, and links to articles is too many steps and that makes writing an article work and makes Newsvine not fun.

There were a bunch of other, stupid excuses, and people don't always say what they actually mean, but there are definitely quite a few very active people on Newsvine here just to have 'fun'. From my observations, threats to that are usually fought pretty fiercely - 'opportunistic sabotage' is the word that comes to mind for me. Increased quality standards would bad news for them, though it does kind of take away from the 'Newsvine is for everyone to participate in' aspect of the site.

There are many, many things Newsvine could do to make that kind of communiteering easier, and they should if they want more like NV Photographers.

Yup and I keep thinking to myself that they need to do something to enable its user base to aspire to greater things and accomplish more cooperatively. Honestly, trying to push a group forward and maintain and increase quality standards (and pageviews) is getting to be a lot of work. There are many who feel MSNBC.com, and even the Newsvine staff themselves, don't care about the community any longer, and that makes it even more difficult.

I've thought many times about ceasing or moving operations. I'm tired with having to deal with people who become belligerent and vindictive because they've been asked to adhere to simple standards. I'm not getting paid to deal with that bull@!$%#. The stuff I ask for can easily be automated and allow me/us to more easily concentrate on development.

Well said, Ben!

HollyKl

You, alone, are enough to keep me Vining! Love your photography. I'm going back to your page for a little more self-indulgence.

Projects like my regular Lost features, Ben's photography, or your community Survivor activity don't really have a place here anymore.

I have a TV/Film blog about to get a redesign for anyone that's looking for a place to post or syndicate that kind of content, FWIW.

Thanks much, JM! And one of the reasons I stay on Newsvine is because the NVP group and Ben have motivated and encouraged me to continually improve the quality of my work. Not to mention the great friendships and interaction with people like you. :)

I'm feeling a little guilty. I've been here for several years, hate the politics, love the NV Photographers .. yet I've only managed to join one meeting. Another reason I stay is for the history stuff .. I always read those, there isn't much to comment about other than to vote them up. You can tell they're good when they get more votes than comments.

I need to get more into the Photography group. Ben does such a good job and I really want to learn more. We might get snow tomorrow, so maybe that's my excuse to not clean the house and go read some articles and see some pictures.

To put what I think you're saying another way: Tyler and Sally's job is to police the bad content, and we need someone to cultivate the good content. There's a world of difference.

To put what I think you're saying another way: Tyler and Sally's job is to police the bad content, and we need someone to cultivate the good content.

It's so subjective though right - what's considered good and bad content. I could hear the opponents now - screaming why one article/seed is featured and not there's. Perhaps more diversified content might be a better way to phrase it?

Either way I agree with the concept and would love to see some change around here.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, ya'll are proposing taking the power of choice out of the members hands and putting it in the hands of an individual. That individual then decides what the viewers should have access to read and comment on, or at least what should have priority.

That doesn't sound like a good business model at all, I don't care if you are selling add space on a website or lemonade at a lemonade stand.

Not only will the people providing the "sub-par" content move on, but so will the people who enjoy reading/commenting on the "sub-par" content. NewsVine is here to make money, the more traffic, the more of it they get from add sales.

Some stuff should be above the fold, and some stuff shouldn't be. If you want to be there, try harder. Do something unique. Do something creative

Right - instead of seeding the trashiest article they can find, throw out a couple of purposefully partisan comments and then watch the hits/comments roll in.

MWeaver I don't think you do this FYI but there are many others that do. When I joined NV in '09 it seemed to be the tale end of authors that would contribute a wide variety of work i.e. a whole series of informative articles on a single topic. I do miss those days...

Not to mention, Brian, that this sort of thing isn't even unprecedented. When Newsvine first got picked up by MSNBC, Calvin hand-picked a handful of content generators to be featured and back-linked on MSNBC itself. I know because my column was one of them. This drove up page hits astronomically and basically guaranteed a spot on the front page. It was a roundabout way of doing it, but cultivating good content has been done before on Newsvine.

MWeaver, I'd suggest imagining it less like punishing certain users, and more like drawing a distinction the way you see on any market. The App Store has the "Most Popular" category and the "Featured" category. Any mom and pop book store has staff picks sitting in a special section, and those aren't necessarily the Times Best-Sellers.

Cultivating and rewarding good content has a long history in any kind of crowded marketplace, and the result has consistently been greater success. Users looking for the popular stuff can still get it, while others can see the content that's been vetted. Brian isn't suggesting replacing the democratic process outright -- he's talking about adding a prominent section for content that's been judged as particularly interesting or unique. If that hurts people's feelings, they should grow thicker skins. Freelance writing is hard.

So what? Good riddance.

Well, that sounds great as long as your livelihood doesn't depend on the success of NewsVine.

How about a "Moderators Choice" section on the Front Page to go along with "Top Seeds" and "NewsVine Columnist". The only way to be published in that section is by getting the approval by Tyler/Sally or one of the Guides?

Unless I'm misunderstanding, ya'll are proposing taking the power of choice out of the members hands and putting it in the hands of an individual.

It doesn't have to be an individual, but providing some component of curation to the current mix would be welcome. There are many different models that could be used to do this. Some of the top of my head:

• Make positive feedback more meaningful (than merely a Vineacity branch). Users in the top 10% (or 5% or 1% or whatever) of positive feedback have their votes weighted more to help promote good content. I'd call this the Plastic model (after the late great plastic.com's karma system).
• Create a pool of recent regular users (tracked by some minimum amount of logged in time) and randomly select some subset of them daily to promote content to the front page or featured sections (or perhaps just nominate it to someone at Newsvine who would monitor a queue for final approval). Some kind of filter could be set up to ensure that only users in good standing would receive this honor. I call this the Slashdot model, after slashdot.com's randomly selected moderator model from a few years back.
• Have semi-regular (weekly, monthly, whatever) nomination and election cycles whereby users select from among their own a small group to promote good content. Institute term limits so that the same group of "popular" users don't dominate. I call this the LiveJournal/Wikipedia model.

Any or some combination of those would allow and foster community participation without necessarily leaving any final editorial authority with Newsvine itself.

How about a "Moderators Choice" section on the Front Page to go along with "Top Seeds" and "NewsVine Columnist". The only way to be published in that section is by getting the approval by Tyler/Sally or one of the Guides?

MWeaver,

I'd oppose using Tyler and Sally for that for two reasons.

1. They already have too much to do, to add more work.

2. I'd rather not have the refs make technical judgments about my activity at 5:30pm, only to have them make purely subjective judgments based on actual content at 5:35.

They are and always should remain neutral rules enforces.

spiffie

Those are all interesting ideas. I like the semi-regular nomination especially, that could be a lot of fun.

--------------------------------------

Brian Ford

What sort of weak line of thought is it that thinks this is best Newsvine can hope to be?

I never said that. All I'm saying is that a websites first purpose is to generate traffic, that's how it makes money. Any improvements are going to be centered around that purpose. You seem to want to disregard that in favor of what you consider to be quality content. Well, you don't get to decide, the users clicking the mouse do.

There is a word for a business that puts ideals ahead of profit: charity. And I seriously doubt that the people of NewsVine, who you know quite a bit about, would be supported of the "so what, screw em, good riddance" philosophy.

--------------------------------------

Paul William Tenny

Good point, our occasional misdeeds would might interfere with the judgement of our content.

--------------------------------------

Well, it appears I have stumbled onto a "remember the good ole' days" old timers article. My apologies, i'll leave you guys to it, call me if you need a cup of warm milk. ;-)

Those are all interesting ideas.

The community does not lack for ideas and never has. What's lacking is the ability to implement them ourselves. We don't have access to the technical plumbing. That's why we need Newsvine itself to offer resources to help improve the site.

There is a word for a business that puts ideals ahead of profit: charity. And I seriously doubt that the people of NewsVine, who you know quite a bit about, would be supported of the "so what, screw em, good riddance" philosophy.

I tried alluding to this in my earlier post, but to be clearer: businesses that cultivate good content with hand-picked selections alongside their popular content do more business, not less.

If Brian were suggesting we get rid of the democratic system wholesale and make every article run through a panel of editors, that would be one thing. Instead, he's suggesting that someone should be highlighting the cream. Right now, thanks to the divisive political tenor of our country, the most hateful, silly, illogical and partisan crap tends to get the most eyes on it. If those people get slightly fewer hits because good, hand-picked content is brought more to the forefront, they can either work harder or give up. If their choice is to give up, they weren't taking this seriously enough to start with.

Newsvine started with a pretty revolutionary idea of citizen journalism, and for a few years we saw some amazing things on a regular basis. These days we're lucky if anyone does truly original content, and when they do, no one sees it. It's buried under the latest seed from this or that person about the latest ideologue to say something stupid and how that's clearly representative of stupidity on behalf of every Republican or Democrat or libertarian or socialist or whatever the hell.

I'm astounded that anyone thinks that the only way to drive revenue and page views is by promoting (or accepting) the worst of us, rather than the best.

Perhaps they haven't been here long enough to have read the best of the Vine yet - what is left of them at least.

Where we agree, though, is that this is not because of some magical group of people from the past, it was a different setup altogether.

Agreed. I think that implies the ideas aren't necessarily gone; only that they aren't actively solicited anymore. Many ideas for improvement came up in discussions generated off of the "new feature" articles the cyborg used to post. It's been a while since those were regular occurrences, sadly.

I'm with you lauhal. MSNBC is generating a lot of comments and often they are nasty exchanges. I say let them have their zillions of comments as if it keeps the majority of angry posters away from the quality writing one can find on Newsvine the better. I've gone to other such forums and found they were so similar to MSNBC seeds with viral posters simply purging their angst. So what if great articles on Newsvine generate fewer hits and least most are great, productive and educational hits and we don't have to wade through garbage. There is room for all of us here and MSNBC has its allure just as NV has theirs.

There are some excellent writers here, but they don't get the page views as people who post inflammatory crap.

... and there's a difference between Newsvine and other blogging sites. Here at Newsvine even restricting content to groups we have limited moderation capabilities as authors. Pretty much anyone can comment.

If we use the only moderation tool we have which is to delete we get in hot water with the staff. Yet many of the posts deflect conversations, are nasty, are ideological or simply one line trolling posts. We don't control the moderation unless we absolutely lock the article to view only mode - this is a problem.

If Newsvine wanted to increase the level of discourse I might suggest a community challenge to come up with better author and user-based moderation functions.

• One thing I would prefer - as an option in authoring a post -would be moderation preview. Give the author the ability to review replies and accept those applicable to the topic or reject those that simply throw it into the gutter.
• If people want to post and let any post in without previewing replies - that too should be an option.

PNB, talk about censure:

One thing I would prefer - as an option in authoring a post -would be moderation preview. Give the author the ability to review replies and accept those applicable to the topic or reject those that simply throw it into the gutter.

I don't agree with that, either, SW. Wow!! We agree on something! lol

We should have the right to a voice on the Columns whether a bias moderator/owner wants to read it or not. If someone can't handle that, then they should have their own site, imo. If a comment shows up that is offensive, trollish or 'perceived' as not on topic - don't finish reading it, nor reply to it. What is on or off-topic is a matter of personal interpretation, quite often... I define that as bias. :)

If we write something about birds, does that mean we should allow the conversation to move to ending the wars?

I suggest options for the author to let replies be free for all or moderated. This isn't censuring comments about the topic, this is limiting the scope of comments to the topic of the article and is used on hundreds of other blog sites.

This article is about the quality of the vine. If you read what I wrote I suggested a community challenge to come up with ideas, I provided one of my own.

I'm sorry PNB; you did suggest an 'option.'

Personally, I think [guess] it would be prolificly utilized if available, and would add to more detriment of the site. It would be another facet of deletion and ignore that creates the 'powermongers' that we currently have. It would damage the exponential effect that leads to more participation from the lists, and just doesn't seem to be in "The Spirit of Newsvine" to "foster community" as I was told was the objective of this site. It's not just to 'get smarter' - it's to learn respect for another's pov. That troll is often a product of its environment - create a new environment, and we might gain a "Viner" instead of a troll. ..Just my thoughts.

Deletion just perpetuates the negativity.

What I understood you to say is that the author could preview comments before allowing them to be posted. That is censure. The author would not be moderated by the readers and that takes away from the community function of NV. We already have the ability to delete obviously off-topic comments out in the open. Why do it out of sight?

Very good point, SW. The decision of being off-topic, offensive and such should be that of the community; not the author/owner. I agree. (Twice in one day -- I'm marking the calendar!:)

The "community" games the current system. They'd game a system of community moderation just as much, if not more so. Bloc voting has been a problem here in the past, and will be in the future, as well. Newsvine has provided an option-- moderation by the column owner. If more people used it, Newsvine would be more polite.

That doesn't deal with the issue of people seeding (or writing) low-quality, intentionally inflammatory material, which draws lots of attention, but doesn't serve what was originally Newsvine's "higher" purpose.

iarnuocon, well, now I have to talk out of both sides of my mouth because I have complained in the past about what appears as 'planned deletions' of articles and comments. It's just that the mod/author does it, too. This is why I, for the most part, support forcing us all to get along. We know if we mentally ignore offensive commentary, it eventually goes away.

Quality material is subjective to a degree, but I think we most likely agree on what kind of topical articles we would like to read. Intentional inflammation (with headlines and content) is against the UA, and should be reported by the users. I thought a better idea would be to give us reporting status, but to take away the actual ability to remove content. I still find myself thinking that building user's egos with powerful tools is the detriment, as it tantalizes the trolls and reregs to keep coming back.

Call my moderation suggestion censure, I'm perfectly fine accepting that and even promoting the idea. The site today feels more like a building wall for every piece of graffiti thrown at it. If Newsvine wants quality contributors, then it needs to provide them with tools to promote a specific discourse. We had national network names once blogging here, ask them why they stopped and what they moved to and you'll understand my perspective better.

It's my assertion that if you want top quality contributors then you need to provide them with tools to direct responses on their posts to weed out the graffiti.

Brian, so sorry if I was a part of the straying away from your issue.

It appears to me that your final paragraph sums the primary *four* points that you are addressing, correct? 1) refill the job that Calvin had; 2) look for talent; 3) promote talent; 4) discourage laziness and re-seeding.

There's no one to channel energy, to encourage content, to lead by example. Because there's no sense of community, there is instead all of the negative things that I mention above.

Well, I'd say yes and no. I do see some of what I would call "quality content" - but it's subjective; not 'everyone' wants to read everything. Most of those are in politics, and yes, they are provocative (but should not be attacking and filled with logical fallacy). They need to be on the edge to encourage both sides of the spectrum, otherwise, you just have a love-fest and high-fiving. Another thing, Brian, it's going to get worse now that the election is nearing. That's to be expected, and is actually a good thing. People need a place to vent.

I do wonder if some of us are reading the wrong message with a need for "Community." Perhaps not; I'm just not sure. There are certainly the "energy channelers" among us. Many of us get along quite well that have had an opportunity to exchange for a long period of time.

After reading comments from Dennis, Synthesis and others, the sense of Community that I interpreted from them wasn't being 'buddies,' but rather an interest in relaying different educational perspectives, and "respecting" another's viewpoint, while supporting the viewpoint with links. One problem... the media sites are biased. So what might have been the start of a good discussion, quickly devolves into attacking the information. That seems to be a logical course of action. Instead of asserting and linking, I think the interpretation is what should be discussed, so that both are on the same page. I think the sense of community is a result of wanting to understand the other, and that is a result of an open-mind and the willingness to listen. Take away the delete and ignore feature, and that might happen. But still, what all of you in '05, '06 and '07 had was 'small.' Small is always closer and more respectful than large.

Encouraging content and leading by example are important. But, again, it's subjective. Who wants to spend the time and energy that it takes to put out a quality and comprehensive article without interested and knowledgeable people in the same genre? So you are right; what Nv did at the beginning - recruited talent - is probably the answer once again. It will have to be enough of the same mind-set, though, or they will lose interest as many of the others have.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, ya'll are proposing taking the power of choice out of the members hands and putting it in the hands of an individual. That individual then decides what the viewers should have access to read and comment on, or at least what should have priority

Yes, mweaver. You've just given the definition of an editor. Most news sources have one.

It's sorely needed on this website, because without one, the front page's "top seeds" and columnists scream tabloid-esque, sensationalist, yellow journalism--from the right and the left.

I've seen Newsvine go from a quality citizen-journalism site to what's looking more and more like an amateurish, childish, extremist rag. I'm still here, but it does take a lot of time and effort sifting through the junk to find the quality. The good, quality stuff is here, for sure, but I'm frankly tired of having to wade through all the articles and seeds being posted, not to discuss a particular issue, but rather to exploit an issue as a vehicle for ridiculing one's political opponents, as in "all conservatives are tea-bagging ignoramuses" and "all liberals are commie socialist traitors" and "looky here at how stupid [insert Republicans or Democrats] are because this member of their group [said or did this)."

And I think everybody here knows to whom I refer. A lot of them have pretty high leaderboard ratings. That should tell you something's wrong.

A lot of the decision-making, I suppose, will hinge upon whether management puts quality of content over advertising revenue. If one doesn't impinge upon the other, then, no problem. But, I certainly would understand if they make the decision that some quality and credibility must be sacrificed for the bottom line. I truly get that.

Brian Ford's #4.7: Bravo and ditto.

MWeaver: "How about a 'Moderators Choice'?"

If quality is the goal, then a "Partisan Antagonists' Choice" should be the exception/alternative, not a "Moderator's Choice." I think quality should be the rule, not the exception. The sensationalist stuff should be the marginalized exception. And I think an actual managing editor is needed, not a moderator. Big difference.

Brian Ford: "I'm astounded that anyone thinks that the only way to drive revenue and page views is by promoting (or accepting) the worst of us, rather than the best."

You shouldn't be astounded. That's one definition of "sensationalism," that thing many around here don't like about some of Newsvine's top leaderboard stars and sweethearts. Sensationalism is precisely why some of them are at the top of the list and on the front page day after day after day, not good, credible, dispassionate, responsible journalism. Being on the leaderboard is obviously not a badge of honor.

but I'm frankly tired of having to wade through all the articles and seeds being posted, not to discuss a particular issue, but rather to exploit an issue as a vehicle for ridiculing one's political opponents, as in "all conservatives are tea-bagging ignoramuses" and "all liberals are commie socialist traitors" and "looky here at how stupid [insert Republicans or Democrats] are because this member of their group [said or did this)."

I'm so glad to have you point this out, TS. That's exactly what has happened. Politics, when I joined, had some of that, but it wasn't 90% of it as we see now. I think the LB is detrimental for Newsvine, because the only way to stay consistently as number one or two -- is to post a bunch of inflammatory garbage. The antagonists don't expect to actually 'read' any of it; they just go there to look for others to attack. Occasionally, someone from the other side does go there to comment positively, and they are 'still' attacked, just because of who they are.

..So, yes, the system, with the way it is currently set up, actually rewards, rather than punishes, negative behavior. ..And, thus, means less quality of content overall.

First off, to those who I offended, please accept my apologies for my misunderstandings. I have taken the time to carefully consider the issues and the comments contained herein. As a newer Vine member, I was completely unaware of the “devolution” of NewsVine. How could any newer member be aware of such changes unless present from the beginning? My lack of insight was clear by my comments.

It must be rather disappointing for today’s gifted journalists to deal with how hard it has become to make a living. Many of my clients from the LA Times found themselves laid off after years of excellent service. The growth of Internet news has decimated the traditional way journalists work and are paid. Perhaps this will be an opportunity for someone or NewsVine to fill the vacuum caused by technological forces.

I came upon this article unexpectedly from Mr. Ford and clearly didn’t understand his and many other Viner’s critique of this free service called Newsvine, which I have come to enjoy. I have read many of the replies and I think I now understand the lament. Newsvine has gradually shifted from a credible site for journalism into a social hub for photography, political extremism and sensationalism, with ever growing egregious commenting. It is tabloid journalism.

As MWeaver stated, “NewsVine is here to make money, the more traffic, the more of it they get from add sales”.

Is it possible that people are willing to pay for content, especially if it is above par and balanced? Perhaps a two-tiered system would work. One for paying members (say $30.00 per year) and one for non paying members that is similar to the current NewsVine approach. I pay for Time Magazine and Newsweek and would willingly pay for a similar source of news from the Internet, if it has above par journalism, creative links and instant commenting.

IMHO, money and voting talks. How can you track your audience, attract enough readership, maintain relevance and pay your staff?

I hope with any upcoming changes, the journalists are given a deserving opportunity to succeed in their craft and that NewsVine can evolve into a sight that does accentuate excellence, yet continues to provide content for the masses.

I have read many of the replies and I think I now understand the lament. Newsvine has gradually shifted from a credible site for journalism into a social hub for photography, political extremism and sensationalism, with ever growing egregious commenting. It is tabloid journalism.

JM, that is how I see it as well. As one of the foundational Viners has prolificly stated, the site is devolving into another Facebook, and the Founders had worked so hard to prevent that.

The private groups are more oriented for the social element, rather than the main forum which was to promote the 'getting smarter' theme, with current events and educational topics.

It was also stated that diversity in topics became a part of the evolution, and it is encouraged.

Love the newish features, but the breakdown in management has caused me to comment a lot less, contribute a lot less, and generally CARE a lot less about this site over the last couple of years.

Which exasperates the downward trend of the site no? Some of our best/original contributors of the Vine walking away or participating less is exactly what we don't need.

I miss reading Viners' articles who are/were real writers.

I am sorry you feel that way. I try to avoid the crap and have managed just fine.

There is the occasional gang mentality, which I abhor.

I never had the pleasure of experiencing Newsvine between 2006-2009, so I can't comment on what it was like. Regardless, I can't sweep away all the uniquely educational and thought provoking articles and comments that I have enjoyed since October 2009.

Can you recommend a better site to participate?

This country has a massive population and Newsvine has grown to include more diversity, including elements that may be less favorable to the early members.

eh......debatable. Too many lies and wrongheaded opinions presented as facts around here. Many of the early members, Brian included, figured that facts mattered. I have disagreed with his perspective at times,but he never presented bull @!$%# for the sake of dumbing down other viners'. He is also correct that it is increasingly difficult to find quality work and equally as difficult to find quality discussions.

Too many lies and wrongheaded opinions presented as facts around here.

eh.....debatable.

I've been on NV for three years. I think it is the best place to explore different subjects, opinions and ideas. Is there crap here, yes there is but it can be avoided. I do know many that stick to the contract and the rules and contribute in a honorable manner. We have to take the good with the bad and here at least we can avoid the bad if we chose to do this.

How can Newsvine encourage better quality without becoming Big Brother?

Wrong question. What can Newsvine do to motivate the user base?

Hi Ben!,

Any suggestions on how to motivate? There's lot's of critiquing, but no solutions, other than abandoning ship.

It's difficult to figure out, JM, but Newsvine has always been community-driven, so I suppose a good starting point would ask the community to discuss it. We could have those discussions on our own, of course, but few people write articles like Brian has done here. Improving Newsvine used to be a frequent topic but it seems everyone is content with the way things are today - except when it becomes politically convenient to complain.

Fill Calvin Tang's vacant role. Harvest and encourage talent.

That is especially important too.

Ben, you are one of the reasons why I continue to enjoy Newsvine. Now that I have discovered Brian and Teresa, I'll likely enjoy their participation, as well.

There is always an abundance of trash. I seek the diamonds in the rough.

Improving Newsvine used to be a frequent topic but it seems everyone is content with the way things are today - except when it becomes politically convenient to complain.

Perhaps many of us just got tired of talking about changes and really seeing nothing happen. Calvin gave us an ear and a response, no one has replaced that. After a while talking to yourself feels self-defeating.

There are a lot of people that like it the way it is now, constant bickering among sides, and crap all over the front page feeding the fight. Myself, I'm semi retired from posting unless it's odd news or fluff.

Not to mention we haven't had a real site update in a long, long time, and that means very little in the way of new features or response to community feedback. It feels a bit like the mechanisms are in place and the staff is content to let the gears keep turning.

I've reported spam advertising articles highlighted on the front page. How does the algorithm pick such random BS to display? This is definitely not good promotion.

Do you really think it's reasonable or possible to achieve such a lofty goal? America is a republic for very good reasons. True democracy leads to mob-rule. The Vine is more democratic, and if the majority of Viner's were given power over this country, we'd likely have mob-rule.

Brian, who is the official help from on high?

Newsvine.com.

The beauty of Newsvine, is that we can see a glimpse of America from our ivory towers. It is a rough world out there. Attempts to "motivate" or whatever, may lead to what we should all fear most, which is censorship.

Sophistication is elitist and is hard to find. But it is available if you seek it.

Enjoyed the discussion, all. Have a great day. I hope you'll all be back to lead by example.

Take a break. You are too serious. Life isn't perfect or fair. You seem to get all in a puff over issues that you'll never be able to control. Stop and smell the roses, in spite of all the weeds around you.

My advice is from an experienced teacher who once said to me that she had educated thousands of students, but had reached only a handful. She was satisfied that she had made a difference for those students that cared.

You must be the change you wish to see in the world

Ghandi

Thanks for the insult. I think you should be ashamed of yourself. Quite disturbing from someone who is demanding quality.

Don't come and tell me that I'm too serious

O.K. I'm gone, no problem. I'm sure you'll be happier.

The problem isn't that I'm too serious,

I think you really need a break.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

Bye, bye!

You're not fine, as you wish to believe.

My suggestion was not an insult. I sincerely apologize if you felt my advice was anything less than encouraging you to remain positive. I recoiled because you did lob an insult my way because I don't agree with your point of view entirely.

I don't seek votes, nor popularity.

I look for meaningful articles and people who strive for excellence in this imperfect world, including the Vine. You have been painting a very negative picture of something (that includes me and other cherished Viner's) which I don't see in abundance.

If you want the Gestapo running this site, keep promoting your personal interests and insulting those who would disagree. I know you want the power to censor...go ahead, delete my post.

This is shameless nonsense.

"Each member [of society] must be ever attentive to his social surroundings - he must avoid shutting himself up in his own peculiar character as a philosopher in his ivory tower."

-H. L. Bergson's Laughter, 1911

Brian, your articles and opinions are worthwhile. Don't leave your town because more people have moved in. Enough said.

If you want the Gestapo running this site, keep promoting your personal interests and insulting those who would disagree.

He doesn't want that, and has made that abundantly clear.

I know you want the power to censor...go ahead, delete my post.

Censor? Hardly. I suspect you don't know what that means.

Look, you don't like Ford "painting a very negative picture" and claim Newsvine is something you "cherish", but Newsvine, comparatively, has gone to @!$%# - I'm sorry but it really has - but that doesn't mean there aren't good items floating amidst the muck - Ford has gone out of his way to say so, even - and it's a bit much to hear you slam him over something you "cherish" when the only reason he has posted this, and posted many, many more suggestions and quality pieces of work, besides, and over a number of years, here, is that he so clearly cherishes it too, and, more to the point, has devoted a not insignificant portion of his life to the struggle in keeping Newsvine worthy of being cherished, at all.

There was a time when there were more like Ford, although few if any with his tenacity and drive to make Newsvine better (or keep it from sliding into the muck), and Newsvine was a better place for it. Most of those quality writers gave up long ago. And, you know what, sad to say but if you disagree with Ford then there's no need to antagonize him: if he hasn't succeeded in righting the ship by now, he probably never will (or, rather, he probably never will convince those with the actual power to do so). (Sorry, Brian.) You'll get the Newsvine you seem to cherish, JM, and you won't have to do anything at all to get there.

All that is necessary for Newsvine to sink beneath the muck is for good Viners to do nothing

-not Gandhi.

but Newsvine, comparatively, has gone to @!$%#

Why the scatological talk? You don't have to wallow in it, do you? You are another long-term Viner and this is your best shot? I welcome the new Viner's if this is what it used to be like.

Because, IMHO, Newsvine has gone to @!$%#. Perhaps that word - here, in case you have forgotten, that word is "@!$%#" - is either meaningful or distasteful to you in a way that it is not to me - but in that case I suggest, then, you ought not use it. For your own peace of mind, of course. I, however, will continue to, where I deem it appropriate - as for example in a discussion of Newsvine, the trajectory of which *I* happen to find to be, unfortunately, both meaningful and distasteful, and, well, @!$%#.

Hope that clears it up.

Chasing

One little question.

If it is excrement, why the fascination and return? When I defecate, I flush it down the toilet, hoping to never see it again.

IMHO, you can't leave this "@!$%#" alone.

JM, honestly, you're missing the point. You may be more optimistic than Brian about this place, but telling him to buck up and shut up isn't going to accomplish anything. Making wild misrepresentations of his (very clear) opinions only worsens it, and displays that you're running out of legs to stand on.

If you want to play the part of a zen master accepting the things you cannot change, how about you accept that Brian has a different opinion than you and leave it be?

JM, that you (and not I) seem to focus on the usage of the word "@!$%#", means to me that either you've a greater fascination than perhaps even you know (you might want to explore that), or else that you have nothing of substance to add about anything else I mentioned - @!$%# being, after all, only one word amidst a great many others. To the extent that you do wish to explore that fascination of @!$%# - and I do encourage that, if it's what you feel you need to do, although I would warn that perhaps here on Ford's column is not the place to do it - then have at it, but I hope you'll understand when I say I won't take part. To the extent, however, that you wish to meaningfully discuss Ford's position vis a vis Newsvine (which I tend to agree with), I'm all ears.

No Zen master here, Steve.

I just enjoy the Vine, with all it's warts. I don't know it any other way. I respect Brian's historical take on the changes that have occurred. I am merely suggesting that it's not the excrement he is proclaiming. There is value. I continue to learn from many Viner's and ignore the excrement.

Chasing

You are stumbling over your wordy sentences. You brought up @!$%# and didn't answer my question why you've returned to wallow in it? My fascination is not with excrement, it is with those who vehemently criticize the Vine, yet keep returning to wallow.

As I say, JM, if you have something meaningful to contribute, I am all ears. I am not, however, interested in the word-salad metric of "winning"; this isn't even one of those pointless political debates where that even makes the remotest sense to want to accomplish. Winning that way would, in fact, only be losing, insofar as making Newsvine "better". If you want to have a "so there" moment, or feel you've "won" because you keep hitting return when all others have gone on to other (one would hope better) things, have at it, and feel the accompanying (if brief) warmth and glow. I won't contest it. Alternately, however.... I am a Texan, and Texas can be a pretty awful place, but I am happy to be a Texan and would prefer to work to improve Texas, rather than either a) accept that it will forever be pretty miserable (in a lot of ways, but clearly not all), or b) moving elsewhere. Likewise the US. Likewise The World. There is always room for improvement, even in the Very Good (which Newsvine has been, and which I have witnessed), but also most certainly in the Very Bad. I would prefer to not be one of those good men who do nothing. Especially as the last site that I was on for a very long time (Plastic) and which I did move on from (to here) has now bit the dust, and I am regretful that I did not try harder, despite those, there, who were very much like you, here, and perhaps weren't there to see it at its very best, and so were unaware of precisely what it was they were missing. Or perhaps you do know, but like this iteration better. Still then, fine. Clearly Ford and I do not join in that particular enthusiasm. Live and let live, eh.

I just enjoy the Vine, with all it's warts. I don't know it any other way.

At risk of sounding like a jerk: that's exactly why you should be putting more stock in Brian's point.

Take a look up at the top of this page. See the little icon next to Brian's name, with the branches? He has six of them. I do too. That's the Vinacity symbol, and it was introduced to encourage good content. No one really notices it anymore, but it used to be a pretty big deal. The RAV was the hardest branch to get, and meant you did something special that earned recognition from the community.

I'm not saying Brian and I are better than you or anyone else for earning all six branches. I am saying that it means we were around when things like Vinacity meant something, and we worked hard enough to earn the RAV back when the site was managed in such a way that we could tell the staff cared about the quality of content being produced.

Newsvine has never been perfect, but it used to be a place that constantly strove to be better. Now it isn't. It's filled with layabouts who are perfectly content to shrug and leave it as-is. That's the problem. If you can't understand why that irks people who were here shaping the site from the beginning, the least you can do is not preach to us as if "meh, relax" is some kind of amazing insight.

Someone telling me to 'take a break' because I take what I do here seriously was offensive. It's like saying all the effort I've put into this website is absolutely meaningless. Then they spent energy into being combative and becoming 'extremely insulted' after they were confronted about it. If you ask me, it was all just a ruse used to deflect blame. If you overreact to their confrontation, as if this other person has done something truly terrible, then you can create the illusion they are being unjust and mean.

Thanks, Ben.

Ben, how many long goodbyes have you written as you denigrate the growing Vine membership and that the inmates are running the asylum? Are you part of that asylum? I'm not.

No ruse or illusions here Ben. I am not speaking double talk nor do I plan on being vague. The fact that the author impulsively deleted my harmless comment that was in agreement to #9.24 in which I confirmed that I had nothing meaningful to contribute, speaks for itself.

Perhaps the issue with the author is about declining relevance. When I had a boss and he said "take a break", it wasn't offensive, nor was my comment meant to be with the author. Try, as you may, to denigrate me, I will defend the Vine and continue to conduct myself with integrity. If I get sick of it, or sense a decline in relevance, I'll move on. But you won't catch me whining over and over again about all of it's problems before I depart.

Ben, are you seeking adversaries? If so, look somewhere else, please.

Chasing:

Foof and folderol.

EVERY place on the internet is @!$%#. You can flit from @!$%# to @!$%#, maybe every once in a while alighting on a place that's ephemerally not @!$%#, or, more likely, that's already @!$%# but you hadn't noticed it yet. Or you can acknowledge that everywhere all is @!$%# and just pick the @!$%# you want to wallow in.

Haha, I suppose that may be true. Can't I pick a pile with a better view, and bottle service, though? I'd like that here, please.

Chasing:

Actually, Nope! Somebody always comes along and ruins the view.

The divine law of the internet is by the High Priest of metaphysics, Yogi Berra: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

MalamuteMan

You have a beautiful home-page and your photography is no less inspirational than HollyKl's. I wouldn't lump you into that group of zero's that our angry author and preeminent Viner has invented.

Thanks JM!

Holly, that's how I felt reading the author's lament. It is equivalent to grenade trolling. Not everyone would agree that the Vine is broken, particularly those who have arrived late. The Vine is working. I follow many author's and enjoy them and finding new ones, on a regular basis. I don't no where the author's comments or articles are. I have never seen them highlighted or referenced.

I have never come across this author in 2 years and would fear commenting on any other article, especially if I disagreed. The Vine is growing and many of the older Viner's who have earned recognition may be feeling less relevance. I don't get the comparison of the inmates running the asylum. Since, I guess, I'm an inmate, that is borderline offensive.

However, I didn't expect this to turn into WW3. So I will say peace to you all and I'm appealing the deletion.

If everything is peaches and cream WHY ON EARTH is MSNBC asking the very specific question they're asking?

It isn't.

Holly, not everything written or seeded these days is crap, and Ford did not say otherwise. Nor did he suggest that new Viners are morons, or old golden. Trust me when I say that there was plenty of dreck on the Vine even in the "good old days", and plenty of original Viners who were pains in the ass, loathe to contribute, and not concerned one iota with quality. The difference isn't (IMHO) about any individual Viner (or Viners), but about the community. There used to be one, it used to set a standard, and it used to keep things generally above board even if not everything on the Vine was. I'd like to get back to that. In order to accomplish that, however, I'm of the opinion that change needs to be twofold - one, we as Viners need to rekindle that sense of community, which is now frayed to very nearly the point of non-existence, and, two, structural changes need to be put into place to help support that community. After all, it is in part because of a lack of that structural support that things wound up degrading as they did in the first place. Now is a time where we can assess what has happened, and take steps to address whatever deficiencies we find - but for that, there needs to be a dialogue. Please don't take that dialogue - which is a continuing one, and has been for quite a while now - with a personal attack upon you. I am certain it is not now, nor ever was, meant to be.

This article offends me, because I work very hard to find articles of substance and most of them garner 7 comments if I'm lucky.

I would like a system where it is easy to find articles of substance, and where most of them garner far more than 7 comments.

This article offends me, because I work very hard to find articles of substance and most of them garner 7 comments if I'm lucky.

That's sort of Brian's point. Assuming you work hard and seed articles of substance, they're going unnoticed and being drowned in the teeming hordes of political points-scoring. In a very roundabout way, you seem to be agreeing with Brian about the core problem. In the system he's proposing, you would eventually, and perhaps repeatedly, be promoted as a quality contributor by someone on staff vetting the community. That would land you in a special section that would get attention and, presumably, more than seven comments.

If everything is peaches and cream WHY ON EARTH is MSNBC asking the very specific question they're asking?

Maybe it's a trick question. If a lot of people answered "10", then they think everything is hunky-dory, and they change nothing. If too many people answered "0", then they say "screw it", and shut it down.

From my point of view, Calvin's gone, Viki's gone, and Tyler and Sally both have been reduced to part-time with irregular hours, so nobody's watching the store.

The seeders have overwhelmed and driven off the authors, so there's not much content originating from Citizen journalists, so maybe they're contemplating converting it all over to content supplied by professional writers.

I've been here only a little less than two years, but I noticed the change starting about 3-4 months after I first got here. Since then, it's deteriorated to the point that I go somewhere else to read the news, and there's no point in bringing it back here to share, because no one here wants to read it.

It's a Tragedy of the Commons situation, is the way I see it. It would take some pretty draconian measures to straighten it back out. More than Viners can do, and I doubt if MSNBC is interested in supplying the resources to do it with.

The seeders have overwhelmed and driven off the authors

That definitely seems like a problem.

I guess I'm sick and tired of Viners of old lamenting about the "good old days" and referring to what is being written and seeded on this site currently as "crap". Either provide an example of something you would consider of substance or kindly stay silent, as you have for quite some time. This article offends me, because I work very hard to find articles of substance and most of them garner 7 comments if I'm lucky. Sorry, but I'm sick and tired of reading the whining about what's currently going on with this site, as though those who joined after 2006 are morons and those who joined before are golden.

Well put Holly! I totally agree.

If you think it's that bad, people, don't stick around. Start up a "Newsvine 2 - Only geniuses need apply."

So, how many members did Newsvine have at the end of beta, and how many are there now? I see parallels:

The term root bound defines a condition that is an extremely common problem for self-taught or novice gardeners.

A plant becomes root bound if it is allowed to grow in the same pot for numerous years. In nature, a plant’s root system naturally extends three times the length that it does into the sky. As plants grow fresh foliage above soil they are simultaneously extending and thickening their root systems. If left to grow in the same space for an extended amount of time, a plant will literally suffocate itself like a boa constrictor.

Read more at Suite101: Recognizing a Root Bound (Pot Bound) Plant: Signs, Symptoms, Treatment and Prevention | Suite101.com http://sarah-smith.suite101.com/recognizing-a-root-bound-pot-bound-plant-a127389#ixzz1eAbKn2GU

If you read the entire article, and understand the parallels, you'll know what needs to be done. Remember, I said it was going to be "draconian"...

So, how many members did Newsvine have at the end of beta, and how many are there now?

Hard to say. At the end of the beta, maybe 3 or 4 hundred. Could have been more. Now, no idea. So many have come and gone, and even many who are registered aren't active. The active viner count has probably stayed about the same, more or less.

That's not counting MSNBC users, of course.

Root bound is a poor analogy. The Vine has grown, and has emerged as a significant social medium. It is a marvel of modern technology that has unlimited potential, unlike the confines of a potted plant. The technological genie is out of the bottle and is creating momentum that is hard to predict, especially since this type of worldwide, instant communication, is a new phenomena for mankind. The growth of Newsvine special interest groups from politics to religion, from photography to cooking continues to occur without obstruction. It has surpassed the goals of many original members, especially those who thought they could monopolize thought and opinion. Who would have imagined that seeding would become one of the most popular methods? Who would have imagined that non-political sites would flourish? The rapid evolution is staggering, no different than most modern technologies.

I remain intrigued by this free service and the power it wields. Whatever upcoming changes are implemented, I see no reason for "draconian" measures. Perhaps formatting, categorizing and bugs can be improved, but I'll leave this in the wise hands of Newsvine, who's ultimate goal is to be profitable.

It has surpassed the goals of many original members,

No, it's fallen short of the goals of the original members, and that includes the founders. To a person, we saw this as a sort of informal thinktank that could go in any/every direction, while maintaining quality and civility. Instead, it turned into a battleground of left vs. right, and a troll magnet.

especially those who thought they could monopolize thought and opinion.

Of which there were exactly none. The very idea is antithetical to our original goals.

Who would have imagined that seeding would become one of the most popular methods?

Oh...everyone. That's why it was added in the fist place. We wanted to broaden the scope - not just the opinions and writings of users, but also of the media at large, on a global level.

but I'll leave this in the wise hands of Newsvine, who's ultimate goal is to be profitable.

Unfortunately it hasn't been in their hands since 2007. It's in the hands of MSNBC execs who neither know nor care what this place was, is or could be.

especially those who thought they could monopolize thought and opinion.

Dennis, I would like to know why those [the column-owner] that do that aren't penalized, and are allowed to 'go on' to delete others for having a thought of their own - especially when it's been pointed out to the Staff?

You already know the answer. The staff can't be everywhere. They can't respond to every report. Hell, there's only two of them.

If you're suggesting, though, that there are Newsviners here who consistently violate the CoH and get a free pass to do so, I disagree.

Dennis, yes, I do know the Staff can't be everywhere; that's something that I, too, often purport.

What I'm saying is that when I have reported a column-owner for consistently deleting me, calling me out for being "off-topic" as an excuse to delete me, when it clearly is never off-topic (not anymore than anyone else in the discussion) - then it is obviously prejudicial treatment.. and my reports have not been addressed. The perp has gone so far with his prejudice that he has reduced himself to deleting my friends that follow me in (happened once) saying the same - and neither of us are saying anything different (in context) that the others that are not getting deleted. My friend also, did not get a reply to her report. ..I'm not saying that a "free pass" is being handed out, necessarily, but I am wondering if there could be preferential treatment in some cases, specifically this one with this particular User.. as I've been told that several reports have been made against his blatant misuse of CoH #4. ..I can understand wanting to kick people off of one's column if they are an obvious troll (inflammatory, attacking, etc)... but that is 'not' the case. It's purely being prejudice, bigoted, arrogant and righteous.. and a major violation of maintaining the "Spirit of Newsvine."

What I'm saying is that when I have reported a column-owner for consistently deleting me, calling me out for being "off-topic" as an excuse to delete me, when it clearly is never off-topic (not anymore than anyone else in the discussion) - then it is obviously prejudicial treatment.. and my reports have not been addressed.

CL, that's happened to all of us. I recently participated in a thread where I had three users attacking the hell out of me, and one was the moderator. Several Viners commented on how the moderator should be ashamed for letting those attacks stand, and joining in on them. One user never once even mentioned the subject, but addressed at least 20 comments, all attacks, at me. I was the only subject of his posts...and this guy has been doing this for a year. I've never even seen his behavior addressed by the moderators. I reported at least 30 comments, and so did others.

Nothing happened. Sally showed up once and told a completely different user to "stay on topic" and that was all. Not one attack was addressed, collapsed or deleted. Not one. And these attacks were blatant. I'm talking suspension worthy, and in a few cases, cause for outright banning.

My ignore list grew, though.

Thank you for telling me that a scenario like that exists. I'm sorry that happened, too.

That is truly discouraging behavior, and it would seem a moderator wouldn't want it to stand, if they want quality commenters like you, to show up. I don't understand those mod's reasoning. Atleast, I know that I'm not the only one that gets treated like that by %@#!* mods. lol

It's interesting how stuff like this stays with me; I still remember being new, and having something similar to this happen two and a half years ago -- and I still hate that guy! :)

This particular person is currently suspended for similar behavior on another thread in which I didn't participate.

So....she got a pass on the thread where I was attacked, but got caught somewhere else.

Good to know that Karma still exists. ☺ Hooray!!

Tyler and Sally are like traffic cops.. They get some, others get past them.

They do a pretty good job when I've been in the discussion section that they showed up in, which hasn't been that often. I respect the position they are put in and understand that mistakes might get made, but more often than not, they seem to be right.

The rest of us might not always understand the decisions, but we don't know how many repeat offenses were involved that affected the decision.

True, many of us 'speed' a little at times, but only a few of us get a ticket. :)

(I hope anyone reading my comments know that when I say "mod," I mean the column-owner - if I'm ever referring to Tyler or Sally, I would use their name or say "Staff Moderator." ...I had a discussion once where someone started berating me because I used the word "mod" and they thought I meant the Staff. lol)

When it comes to people moderating their columns, I've seen the worst and the best. Sooner or later, though, the truly bad ones get what's coming to them. Well, except for one guy who shall remain nameless - he had 3 week-long suspensions and 2 month-long suspensions from Calvin, all for being, in Calvin's words "the worst moderator on Newsvine. Then, when Tyler came in, it started over. Apparently Tyler was never made aware of his track record, and he's since received a couple of week-long suspensions, but he really should have been gone long ago.

When it comes down to it, though, if you see someone who is a terrible moderator, just stay away from their column.

#11.25: When it comes down to it, though, if you see someone who is a terrible moderator, just stay away from their column.

That is truly the best advice there is for situations like that. Seeders/authors can also be trolls, and you know what they say about that: DNFTT.

Dennis, Speaking of those grossly offensive column moderators, I don't understand why anyone shows up...especially the one I was referencing. Feeding the guy's ego as they do, only keeps the arrogance and bigotry going for the next prey that happens along. I sure hope he gets caught some day.

I know he wants me and the others he has slighted to stay off of his column; I just hate letting him get his way when it's being done for the wrong reason...prejudice. (also, he deletes and cites CoH violations to anyone that uses profanity in their sentences (not directed to anyone) - lol - stating that they are violating the UA. So, he's not only bigoted and prejudice, he's not very bright.)

Hopefully, it will all come back to him, eventually:). I never had vindictive qualities (in person); the Vine experiences like this have brought out the worst!! lol

I've noticed a lot of users who @!$%#ing delete @!$%#ing profanity. I try to tell them to just turn on their goddamn filter, but they just won't @!$%#ing listen.

Some people just don't understand the CoH, in letter or in spirit, and if you try to explain it to them (and you're me) they go on a rant about "old viners who think they own the place."

New viners used to come in and listen to advice from those who had been here a long time. Now they just attack those people (if they're me) and call them (me) names.

LOL.. I've seen you get those attacks for making user suggestions, and I understand the desire to remind us from time to time of what the goals are and how best to promote the "Spirit." Yes, I noticed advice was appreciated in the past, and one would think it would still be today, considering the trolling that exists in politics and religion. The conglomerate caused an irreversible trend, it appears, and the push to be so closely related to Facebook is... nearly sanctimony! lol

..Unfortunately, those that most 'need' to hear your words, Dennis, usually don't, it seems. Or in other words, those of us that slip into the 'lighter' side from time to time, aren't generally the 'offensive' users, yet the truly offensive users, that "don't" slip very much, do more damage. :)

Thanks for discussing the issue with me. It helps to release the steam, for a while.

I sure wonder what the up-and-coming "changes" are going to be, and when we will find out.

"bitemore" 11.26 ---Thank you! I know you both are right.

Holy @!$%#, Dennis, keep it down. You don't want to alienate all the idiots that purposely turned their filters off.

If you have a problem with an author/seeder then stay off his articles. Let him spew his @!$%# to his friends. All you do by patronizing him is giving him more hits. If an author gets no readers does he make a point?

I know. It's just that "bullying" and "threatening" shouldn't be the way nasty mods get their way in their effort to kick others off their columns. Staying away, just rewards their negative behavior is the way I see it. I know showing up gives them the hits, but it also shows them that their negative tactics don't work. They still get their followers, somehow (must be drugs or hypnosis.. lol). Oh well..

Holy @!$%#, Dennis, keep it down. You don't want to alienate all the idiots that purposely turned their filters off.

Oh. I don't?

If an author gets no readers does he make a point?

Only if he falls down in a forest.

Sure. Bring it back and I'll recommend it.

Heh, good one....

Fill Calvin Tang's vacant role. Harvest and encourage talent. Give quality content a shot, event if that means promoting it artificially rather than democratically. (The popular vote doesn't seem to work.) Promote effort. Discourage lazy rhetoric and me-too seeding.

I definitely like your suggestions. What was Calvin Tang's role?

Thanks for letting me know. Something tells me that I barely an idea of what Newsvine used to be like.

No debate from me, Brian.

Give the community something to feed on.

If that can be achieved without eliminating three quarters of America, I'm with you.

I agree with working to help 'viners. We all need a little nudge, here and there, to put a little more effort into our work. Most certainly everything I've ever been inspired to do on Newsvine, from the very beginning, has been influenced by various 'viners encouraging me to try something new and constantly work to improve my writing, research, reporting, and photography skills. This attitude promotes higher quality material and leaders, and ultimately that is what Newsvine needs to drive more traffic. It's necessary for the community to retain this attitude. Currently, either we lack the proper leadership to perpetuate this brand of attitude or it is completely demotivated for any number good reasons, IMO.

I believe we have a huge group assisting those that need a leg up. This group I run with is not inclined to criticize what is available but to promote a way to understand and get to a comfortable place where they can participate intelligently and skillfully. We take the pressure off in other words. We are the Newsvine Community and how successful it is depends up us whether we have a grand leader or not.

Personally I have guided some away from the toxic elements of NV without alienating them from those sites. I think the biggest leap we can take is to gently guide those running with the wrong crowds to take a look at what they are missing in other areas. When I first joined Newsvine three years ago I was groping and often fell into a vat of teaming ugly snakes. If I'd make a comment in a balanced manner I'd be told I was too much of a wuss for Newsvine. There were many at that time that were arrogant, condescending and reprimanding and it seemed to me they were attempting to control everyone that visited their site. There are a few left, or perhaps I am much wiser but it looks as if the only elements we have to worry about now are re-regs and trolls.

Facebook has also become an integral part, unfortunately, it seems. Did you notice how there is a new link on the Account page? I've been guessing that we will see that on every page eventually. I think entwining us with Fb is a mistake as it adds a completely different element that works against this concept, and it generally attracts a different type of personality. The main forum here had a concept of social 'news' chat regarding the topic; Fb chat is something entirely different in nature. ..What's your opinion?

Newsvine had a chat feature once. I remember using it once or twice when I first joined, but because it wasn't very popular, it disappeared.

FB Chat also hooks you in via Skype, am I right? I don't know because I disabled the chat feature on FB about a year ago, and I refuse to give them my number now.

I haven't seen the link on the account page, but it wouldn't surprise me that it's there. Practically everyone is on Facebook, so if you want to get information out to the masses then share it on there. However, I doubt you'll get the right audience.

My point was that I think incorporating the Fb element into Nv is a mistake. The users from Fb have a different objective (quite often) from the objective of the orginal Nv... I was comparing it to the complaints you were making of MSNBC... I see the two as much the same in many ways. ..Just polar opposites.. with Nv somewhere in the middle.

Nina, hi! I'm with you. There are times when I go where I know it will be extremely controversial, yet I know I'm headed for the snake pit. I am responsible for what I glean from Newsvine. I did not come here to be recognized and praised, I came here to find like minds, to explore, test my debating skills, writing skills and a whole lot of other skills. Newsvine is a wonderful educational facility that costs nothing to take classes in everything that is offered in life.

Excellent Point, js! (Thanks) One should also take into consideration that sometimes when we change psychologically, our old perceptions are altered. What we remembered as #10 might be seen as #1 now. Not because the site has changed, but that we have. Every person we come into contact with leaves a footprint whether large or so small, we do not notice. However, the footprint is still there.

I am dyslexic so I am sure you will find my language very basic. If you do not like it, then please do NOT read my comments. We all have to take responsibility for our actions and that means not only what you choose to read, but what you choose not to read. It really is quite simple and does not take a Mensa to figure it out!

First, they have the nerve to abandon the Newsvine format and graphics,

It's old and outdated. I will say that I don't like the pastel colors and the lack of contrast. No Help button, and a Contact button that doesn't connect to NV, are another couple of things.

they never comment on MSNBC articles.

There's only a few people who I like to see on the MSNBC articles. Anybody else gets untracked from.

forcing people to use the "back" button or "favorites" tab to return to the Vine.

Put a link to Newsvine smack dab in the middle of the Favorites bar. I use mine a lot on NV, just so I don't have to scroll back to the top of the page.

And there was no link to send a FR

That can be turned on/off here. You stumbled on to someone who doesn't want to be friends with anybody, or they're being stalked. They probably won't be around long either way.

Would I recommend Newsvine?

Nope, but only because I don't want to be held responsible if they have a bad experience. Most of the people I deal with IRL aren't "net-savvy".

Just remember, though, that if you get too close to MSNBC you may come away with cooties.

As if that doesn't happen on NV... One of the multiple-accounters has discovered one of my seeds this morning. They're holding a "reunion".

#19.1: One of the multiple-accounters has discovered one of my seeds this morning. They're holding a "reunion".

OMG!!! Hopefully, the "reunion" won't last long!

One of the multiple-accounters has discovered one of my seeds this morning. They're holding a "reunion".

LOL! Shades of Sybil.

Myk:

I say it's all the prankster's fault!

How dare you.

It was the NYTRefugees and you know it.

Granted you people were like a vile cancer metastasizing across the fertile, nubile body of our enlightened utopia, and given enough time you would surely have destroyed us anyway. But everyone knows that the pranksters acted with such malice and evil in their hearts that Newsvine's implosion was already there, fully-formed, between the words in their disgusting posts. Once published the destruction was immediate and irrevocable.

The implacable wrath sprung forth from their action like a Star-Trek-Mirror-Universe Athena (complete with goatee!) ripping her way out of her father's forehead and skull-@!$%#ing every virtuous thing in the universe before her, then burning it in flames stoked with its own excrement.

How could anything survive that act?

Myk:

Ha.

You think that robust community would have collapsed like a rotted oak had we Refugees not eaten away at the insides?

Interesting, suddenly pages are taking an eternity to load, just like they used to for me. Tyler, did you put me on the pain list? :P

And Jack:

Global Warming may be destroying the planet, but if the sun goes supernova tomorrow it doesn't make much of a difference in the long-run. ;)

Mykola Bilokonsky,

Great writing! Will you have me, a felonious and malignant neoplasm as your friend in crime?

Newsvine is not dead! Older members may be getting putrid but are still clinging to life and living it on Newsvine for lack of a better place. New members of all kinds are still joining the site and it continues to grow. I might suggest that older members could still be quite valuable if they would just concentrate on the community needs and quit trying to make all members into Citizen Journalist. I applaud the mention of a tier system. That was a recommendation I made over five years ago. I would accept almost all the suggested means to a better News site. I think our main problem has been the Community side of Newsvine. Too many have surrendered their support of the underlying community and that may prove difficult or impossible to correct.

Tyler, did you put me on the pain list? :P

Nope... it's been a frequent occurrence for quite some time, now. It usually has something to do with loading Fb and Twitter programs, I've noticed.

I blame it on the guy who blew the whistle on the Prank.

And MSNBC.

And Neocons.

..Neocons, for sure! They are the 'wild card' (literally, figuratively and metaphorically).. :P

And Neocons

McCann, if you weren't the from the extreme polar opposite, I might agree.

But I still like your artwork.

Too funny, CL. You beat me to it.

JM, something you should know about me. If I can't find my car keys, I blame the Neocons.

I say it's all the prankster's fault!

I blame them for the price of peanut butter, too. Of course, I blame myself for buying the stuff, anyway.

Hey, say what you want about me but how DARE you mock The Prank? That was and remains one of the most important events in the history of the world - I know so because a community dedicated to discussing the events of the world wrote dozens of articles over several weeks pointing out just how harmful The Prank was. Why, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you one of the leaders of that whole anti-Prank movement? They've gotten to you, haven't they? I see what you're trying to do! They're paying you to cover it up, aren't they? That's the only reasonable explanation, it MUST be a conspiracy!

But aside from that, sorry you take my comments so seriously. I'm not bothered by what you're doing, I'm intrigued - because in any other context I'm sure you'd agree that expecting different results from identical actions is a futile endeavor, right?

What I'm trying to get at is that you could lay out a perfect plan for a utopian news site that makes us all into better human beings (which let's be honest, that's what this place used to be) and it Would. Not. Matter.

Because the function of newsvine.com is to generate profit for its owner, and link bait is always going to be more profitable than mind-expanding quality discussion. Every time. That's why everyone knows who Kim Kardashian is, or why the whole Birther movement exists.

I'm not trying to piss on your efforts, I'm trying to understand what you see that's different than what I see. You're like the guy who walks into GM's office and says "Ya know what would be great? Bicycles! Let's start making bicycles!" and list all the reasons why biking is better than driving. You can be as right as you want, but GM isn't about to stop making cars in favor of bicycles. That's just not what they do.

Sure you can spawn a 200-comment thread from other consumers of GM products, all agreeing with you that riding bikes is great - maybe reminiscing about a time when GM was a bicycle company - but ultimately that's not going to be very effective, is it?

Or maybe it is, I guess? Let me know how it works out.

As far as the working-at-newsvine comment, I'm not trolling you - that was initially a longer comment, but I trimmed it back. What I had initially wanted to ask is, don't you realize that you're trying to work for the old Newsvine, and that even if the current Newsvine did hire you you'd hate it? The whole idea of profit over culture drives this place now, and I'm just wondering if you've thought that through.

PS feel free to ask me some time why I'm still doing Flash Development and I'll bet you money that I can give you a better answer to that than you can give me about this. ;)

In the end, I don't really are about any of the input that's been posted here, save perhaps Tylers.

Wow.

Fair enough, man. Your answer seems to be that you know things that I don't based on conversations with insiders, and if that's the case then have at it and I'll lay off trolling you for this cycle. But if/when nothing happens and this entire conversation happens again in 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 20 years - I'm just curious to see how long someone can hold on to a vision of an alternate reality. ;)

Cheers!

Feel free to delete this if you want, it really won't bother me...

Hey, say what you want about me but how DARE you mock The Prank? That was and remains one of the most important events in the history of the world - I know so because a community dedicated to discussing the events of the world wrote dozens of articles over several weeks pointing out just how harmful The Prank was.

To a degree the prank led us here. It took a system that had black and white rules and made them all grey. Instead of just booting somebody for violating the letter of the rules, now they have to consider the worth of a user. Which since the msnbc buyout means that, in general, it's better to suspend a user and then let them continue. More eyes being more ad revenue.

What surprises me is that in the wake of the prank, after calvin decided how to handle it, that they didn't codify his response. He effectively said that the longer a user had been here and the more they people that they had interacted with was the important metric about a user. Following that out it would make sense to put the age of a user account into the affect created by voting on a comment or an article. If 5 users that began in december of '05 say that something is inflammatory that should by far outweigh a thousand users from 2011 that vote it up. I think if calvin had stuck around eventually this kind of thing would be put in place, but alas it was not be.

Putting that kind of an algorithm in place would most likely address some of Brian's concerns and make the front page more of a showcase instead of a feeding frenzy.

Just my two cents....

The thing is, the Prank didn't violate a single rule. Not one.

What surprises me is that in the wake of the prank, after calvin decided how to handle it, that they didn't codify his response.

Actually, they did codify his response, which was that users were not allowed to log in to each others accounts for any reason. That was added to the UA because of the prank.

He effectively said that the longer a user had been here and the more they people that they had interacted with was the important metric about a user.

No, he didn't say that at all. He simply said that in decisions of penalties as a result of moderation, a users overall record is taken into account. That wasn't new - it had been that way since the very beginning.

After all, a user who has been here for a long time and has had a good record is more valuable to Newsvine then a troll that walks in and violates the CoH from his first day.

We've been through that. I think it violated a rule, you don't. We will never agree on that. We didn't then and we won't now.

No, he didn't say that at all. He simply said that in decisions of penalties as a result of moderation, a users overall record is taken into account. That wasn't new - it had been that way since the very beginning.

It may have been that way already, but his stating it and making it the official policy had an influence. We are looking at where that leads. From a process perspective it would have been better to suspend the lot of them for a day and say strike 1. Instead he made it public and official that the standards were/are subjective.

After all, a user who has been here for a long time and has had a good record is more valuable to Newsvine then a troll that walks in and violates the CoH from his first day.

I agree. I would also posit that the user that's been here for a long time and not come to mischief is more valuable than the new user. Time isn't something that could really be used back in the tail of '05, but now there's a sufficiency of back-data that it could be a useful metric.

No, he didn't say that at all. He simply said that in decisions of penalties as a result of moderation, a users overall record is taken into account. That wasn't new - it had been that way since the very beginning.

It may have been that way already, but his stating it and making it the official policy had an influence.

It was always policy.

Acts that run contrary to the spirit and purpose of Newsvine, including attempts to circumvent the Code of Honor & User Agreement, are not allowed. More +

A user's participation at Newsvine is judged as a whole. Recurring counterproductive behavior or negative contributions - even if not specifically addressed in the Code of Honor or the User Agreement - may still warrant removal of that person from the Newsvine Community.

I'm not a NeoLib. I'm a classic Liberal. Capital L.

Opposite of Neocon?

Human.

Agreed.

I'm a classic Liberal...

Not to be confused with a "classical liberal," I presume. That wouldn't sound like you at all. :)

Dude, I'm so liberal I make Abbie Hoffmann look like a fascist.

Not to be confused with a "classical liberal," I presume. That wouldn't sound like you at all. :)

Is there a difference?

First of all, I'm a she, not a dude. And, as I explained in my 22.2 below, I was just kidding. I think I understand your political position.

And, yes, there is a difference. In American political parlance, a "classical liberal" is, basically, a libertarian (again, in American political parlance). And even in our limited exchanges, yours and mine, I think I know you well enough to know you're not a libertarian in the American sense of the word, but a true, committed, leftist liberal. Meant no offense.

Sorry about the gender mix up. No way to tell from your name.

Yeah, you got it. I'm liberal in the European sense of the word, which used to be used in America too. I simply believe that everyone has the right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't infringe the rights of others.

...the gender mix up. No way to tell from your name.

You're right. Happens all the time. No problem.

Yeah, you got it. I'm liberal in the European sense of the word, which used to be used in America too.

Right. Also, "libertarian" has a different meaning in today's modern-day American politics than it does in the traditional sense.

I simply believe that everyone has the right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't infringe the rights of others.

That's my own philosophy in a nutshell.

IMHO, it's the degree to which we want government involved in this issue or that one that determines one's "liberalness" or "conservativeness," and that degree usually varies from issue to issue (such as, for example, a conservative can be pro-choice, pro-gay marriage and anti-death penalty; again, it's not specific issues that make one conservative or liberal).

IOW, specific issues are not the gauge for one's placement on the political spectrum, but, rather, one's preference as to degree of government involvement in those specific issues.

Hell, you folks must not be from the Midwest. Out here, "dude" is gender neutral, along with "you guys". As far as the "corpse" of Newsvine, it really isn't that Newsvine died. Think of it this way-- the Newsvine we knew and loved was a sweet young thing with promise in her eyes and a lack of knowledge about the way the world worked. She kissed you and told you that she loved you. Then she grew up. Now she's spreading her legs for nice dinners and the occasional fifty dollar bill on the nightstand. She is still the same girl, only jaded and without scruples.

You can still have a cup of coffee with her, and talk about old times, but you're never going to go back to being a couple. Ever.

Hell, you folks must not be from the Midwest. Out here, "dude" is gender neutral, along with "you guys".

Yep. Chicago.

You can still have a cup of coffee with her, and talk about old times, but you're never going to go back to being a couple. Ever.

Ever since she found that sugar daddy.....

You can still have a cup of coffee with her, and talk about old times, but you're never going to go back to being a couple. Ever.

Well, I guess that'll have to do, since Plastic won't even answer my calls...

it is properly said "Yinz guys" here. And we call our pets DUDE too.

In Chicago its "You'se guys."

iarnuocon, brilliant!

he spent a lot of time with the Mythical Gods' statues.

Mythical gods? As opposed to what?

TS... Dennis.. could be [a classical liberal]...

Nah. I'll believe he's converted to American libertarianism only when I hear it from Mr. McCann himself. :)

All kidding aside, I'm pretty sure I understood exactly what Dennis meant: He's a liberal, as in to-the-left, in his political views. I was just kidding and mainly parsing words for sport--you know, that thing we do on Newsvine. :)

I'll believe he's converted to American libertarianism only when I hear it from Mr. McCann himself. :)

Actually, I think most libertarians are a bit confused. They consider themselves socially liberal and fiscally conservative. If they looked at the economic indicators for the last 50 years, they'd realize that both of those views are consistent with the Democrats.

It's the GOP that spends like drunken sailors, and the Dems who bring spending back to manageable levels.

Mythical gods? As opposed to what?

..a classical musician? Although, you do slightly resemble Bach (or possibly Beethoven - in the movie:).

TS, I think the same... "to the left"...he's not fully extremist-left, yet. :)

Didn't see the movie....

TS, I think the same... "to the left"...he's not fully extremist-left, yet. :)

I can't be. I quit doing drugs more than 25 years ago. They revoked my membership.

TS..

it's not specific issues that make one conservative or liberal).

I agree; I wrote an article, highlighting that.

Dennis..

I can't be. I quit doing drugs more than 25 years ago. They revoked my membership.

I'll check with the Newsvine Staff and see if that can be reversed as a result of tenure membership with Newsvine. :P (Tyler's not reading this is he? ...Just joking.. I know the Staff isn't on 'drugs'... really, I do!)

Actually, I think most libertarians are a bit confused. They consider themselves socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

I think most do consider themselves socially liberal and fiscally conservative--to varying degrees. I agree that many are confused--or maybe just exploiting libertarianism--in that, for example, some within their ranks oppose abortion rights, yet espouse individual liberty and freedom. Doesn't compute. I do believe many evangelical conservatives cloak themselves in libertarianism, not understanding what American libertarianism really means.

If they looked at the economic indicators for the last 50 years, they'd realize that both of those views are consistent with the Democrats.

I agree 100%. That's why I remain a registered Democrat even though I have a fair amount of libertarian blood in my political veins. Difference with me, and with a lot of libertarian-minded Democrats, is that I DO see the need for taxation, and especially the need to raise taxes right now, along with the need for regulation of certain industries (in my view a pretty fair amount) to ensure consumer safety and commercial fairness, whether it's pharmaceuticals, food or financial instruments. I'm all for it--but for functional purposes, not symbolic political purposes. And, degree is key.

It's the GOP that spends like drunken sailors, and the Dems who bring spending back to manageable levels.

I agree 100% when it comes to the GWB era. There was nothing conservative about George W. Bush, and that whole era's practices gave true conservatism a black eye. Bill Clinton, was, in my view, far more of a conservative than Bush, but in a truly moderate, functional manner. He made a few serious mistkaes, imho, like signing into law the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which was the precursor to the '08 financial meltdown, but, all in all, I valued his fiscal policies far more than I did Bush's, especially Bush's carrying on with the abuses the CFMA caused for eight solid years.

I'm afraid I've veered Brian's thread off onto a tangent. Maybe we can continue some time on another more pertinent thread. However, if he doesn't mind, I don't mind continuing...

"...he's not fully extremist-left, yet. :)

Well, actually, he may be. He can speak for himself. "Extreme" is OK in my book. Again, it's that "degree" thing and the freedom to espouse a viewpoint that's not only credible but also on one or the other extreme end of the political spectrum.

All of us have varying degrees of comfort with how much we want government involved in various issues facing us. Some people consider me rather extreme, if not radical, when it comes to certain issues, like abortion, for example, where I prefer no governmental restrictions whatsoever. Yet, a lot of people consider me pretty much of a conservative. That doesn't jibe with today's modern-day political stereotypes, and that's unfortuante and very stereotypical and counterproductive when it comes to consensus and understanding.

The crazy spending didn't start with Bush, though he was the worst. The economy took a serious downturn under Reagan and then the first Bush, and if Clinton hadn't brought it back we'd have been in this boat a long time ago.

But yeah, for some people, Libertarian is the new Independent, and in both cases, it's conservatives who simply don't want to admit that they're conservatives, at least, socially.

I can't begin to tell you how many Viners I've seen over the years with those one of those two words in their name who were anything but that. Most of them sounded like Ann Coulter.

Well, actually, he may be. He can speak for himself. "Extreme" is OK in my book. Again, it's that "degree" thing and the freedom to espouse a viewpoint that's not only credible but also on one or the other extreme end of the political spectrum.

On the political compass I'm in the lower left corner. All the way in the lower left corner. I'm talking far to the left of Gandhi.

Still, I think the only real disagreement between a Liberal and a Libertarian is over just what constitutes responsible spending.

Damn. No edit button.

That last sentence should be before the quote. I hate when they jump around like that.

it's conservatives who simply don't want to admit that they're conservatives, at least, socially.

Again, I agree. Most of the social issues on the GOP/Tea Party plate are anything but conservative. If anything, they're as oppressive as it gets. And I say "GOP/Tea Party" to distinguish it from "conservative." There's not much that's really truly, traditionally conservative about today's GOP or Tea Party.

No, there isn't. The Religious Right became the Radical Religious Right and rebranded themselves the Tea Party, kicking out all the conservatives in the process.

You may be correct in terms of numbers, Dennis.

You also may be incorrect in terms of ideology and the numbers to get said ideology enacted.

It started with Reagan. He jumped in bed with Falwell to get the religious right vote, and this unholy alliance between the Republicans and religious fundamentalism was born. Remember the "Moral Majority" (which was neither?) The PMRC?

It's been snowballing since, and now we've got... Michele Bachmann.

Barry Goldwater wouldn't recognize the GOP today.

truth...

Bill Clinton... made a few serious mistkaes, imho, like signing into law the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which was the precursor to the '08 financial meltdown...

Let us not forget NAFTA.

...

dennis...

...if Clinton hadn't brought it back we'd have been in this boat a long time ago.

Let us also not forget that Clinton had the luxury of working with a Republican Congress the last SIX years of his administration.

For the NeoLibs and non-humans that may have forgotten...

Ha. I should have thought of those a long time ago. I'll just have to live with Truth Sleuth, or TS. :)

Polished journalism is a plus, in my book. That, however, is not synonymous with "comfortable," "easy" or "non-confrontational." To the contrary, good journalism is absolutely and necessarily adversarial.

But many around here don't know the difference in "journalistically adversarial" and "partisanly childish," as in, "I must vent." There's a big difference. And, I'm sorry, but a "moderator" doesn't necessarily know the difference either, or, maybe more accurately, doesn't have the time and/or the manpower to exercise good editorial judgment.

What's needed is an experienced, educated, seasoned and proven editor. An editor is not the same thing as a moderator who administers the literal mechanics of a written Code of Honor. An editor has the objective editorial judgment to go far beyond that, and "that" has nothing whatsoever to do with editorial bias. That's a huge requirement. Ask any trained journalist who's required to check his/her politics at the door before he/she starts practicing. But, yes, it CAN be done. It IS done. There are good journalism resources and outlets to prove it. Infallible? No. Not possible. But credible? You bet.

I'm more interested in curation, or a curator.

Excellent point. The idea is not to have a political "censor" or political "balancer," but rather a good judge of good journalism, and, yes, absolutely, that includes a lot of angry, confrontational message. What you aptly call a "curator" is what many in journalism and literature call a good "editor."

"Editor" is not synonymous with "censor," and that misundestanding is unfortunate. Your characterization of message board/news site "curator" is excellent.

I was commenting before your 24.3 was shown. That's 'exactly' what I was saying!! An "editor" isn't what it's all about here. Unique and individual "passion" is what it's all about - and is the reason why I love this place. Thanks to Tyler and Sally, we are allowed to display our perceptions that add variety and interest to the discussions - something some Column moderators have 'yet' to learn. Unfortunately, the ability to 'delete' removes that 'uniqueness' when a passionate article is taken down by the Community.